So, me and Nights got into a pretty heated game theory conversation, and, well…
This happened.
xilirite: I logged in to League of Legends so I can watch the streams they have in the client
Reil: Oh?
xilirite: And apparently I’m a ‘great leader’
xilirite: So I got a little ribbon next to my name
xilirite: I got this from a match in which we lost 20 minutes in
xilirite: As opposed to the normal 35 minutes
Reil: Wow.
xilirite: So
xilirite: Now I get two kinds of pressure
xilirite: The pressue of having a skin and having people think that makes me better
xilirite: And the pressure of being labeled a leader
xilirite: So… crap
Reil: Just a game.
xilirite: I try to play it semi-competitively, even though I can’t even access ranked yet
xilirite: I don’t take it as seriously as the top tier players
xilirite: But I do take it upon myself to be as good as possible and set an example to my team and all that jazz
Reil: That is kinda wierd.
Reil: On the other hand.
Reil: I wouldn’t know.
Reil: I have never enjoyed MOBAs.
xilirite: I love them
xilirite: I like action, I like strategy, I have decent reflexes
xilirite: MOBAs are all of those things at once
xilirite: I understand why somebody wouldn’t like the genre
xilirite: But I do
xilirite: In the same way a lot of people dislike third person shooters, myself included, I can see why people would enjoy them
Reil: I honestly hate anything that requires grinding.
xilirite: Unless you’re jungling, there isn’t actually much grinding involved in MOBAs
xilirite: Nothing that isn’t natural
xilirite: You keep pushing the lane, and in the process kill minions
Reil: Like repeatedly hitting units?
xilirite: These minions build your gold
Reil: That is pure grind.
xilirite: You grind by accomplishing the goals that lead to victory
Reil: Which is still grinding.
xilirite: By that logic, this means that every game is a grind, as you attack enemies or accomplish the goals of the game repeatedly in order to achieve something
xilirite: Be it victory, a higher score, more points, or smaller victories within a game
xilirite: I’ve never once been playing LoL and thought “I need to grind on these minions for a while”
Reil: No.
xilirite: I kill them because they are blocking my minions and I need them dead to advance to the tower
Reil: Most games have far more variety.
xilirite: If it’s because the matches are long, that’s not a grind, it’s just a long game
Reil: Long games become a grind.
xilirite: And LoL has a tonne of variety, if not in maps, than in champions
xilirite: The matches get far more frantic towards the end
xilirite: With more large scale team fights instead of smaller scale skirmishes
Reil: The actual combat isn’t very enjoyable.
xilirite: With all 5 champions converging on one lane
xilirite: How so?
Reil: The options available to you at any one time are limited.
Reil: Very static.
Reil: Almost no emergent play.
xilirite: If you get bored of a set of abilities, you can switch from match to match — you yourself said the number of options you have doesn’t matter
Reil: No.
Reil: I said the number of options YOU CAN USE AT ANY ONE TIME matter.
xilirite: You said that the lack of talents in Vyrivend doesn’t take away from the depth and enjoyability of the combat
xilirite: You can only use up to 5 in Vyrivend
Reil: Actually, I was criticizing Vyrivend.
xilirite: In LoL, you have anywhere from 4 (With just standard abilities) to around 12 (with certain heroes and item sets)
xilirite: Some aren’t as complex as others
Reil: Which all do basically the same thing with a different animation.
xilirite: But it’s still a vareity
xilirite: …
Reil: Either they change stats, move enemies, freeze enemies, or deal damage. Normally a combination of the three.
xilirite: And how is this bad? How is a combination of a pool of around 10 effects bad? There are still a tonne of heroes with unique abilities that no other heroes have
Reil: But none of them are truly unique.
xilirite: It’s how you use your abilities in conjunction with your other abilities and the abilities of your allies
Reil: You could say that about any game.
xilirite: And also, many champions have abilities that no other champion has, which sets them apart
Reil: The abilities all do basically the same thing.
Reil: Them having a different picture changes nothing.
xilirite: Reil, what you’re saying is this:
Reil: It is the old conundrum of depth vs complexity.
xilirite: The fact that many abilities do similar things is a bad thing, and the fact that most abilities are just combinations of reoccuring elements is also bad
Reil: Complexity increases depth, but makes games less accessible and often are detrimental to the experience.
Reil: Abilities should be FLEXIBLE.
Reil: Like kicking people.
xilirite: If the game were to have every single ability in the entire game not have a single ability that is similar to another character’s in any way, then it would not be a MOBA
Reil: Kicking people into a variety of objects has different effects.
xilirite: It would be a top down action game with a half dozen classes
Reil: This opens up a whole new dimension of gameplay.
xilirite: And many abilities are flexible
xilirite: A good example is the hero Thresh
Reil: Changing stats doesn’t change the core.
xilirite: He has a lantern that can pull an ally towards him at any time
xilirite: This can be used to move faster, escape enemies, gank enemies, or a combination of all of these things
Reil: But that is IT.
Reil: There is no creative usage.
xilirite: For instance, combining the lantern with a ganking ability from the other player
xilirite: Okay Reil
xilirite: Tell me now
Reil: That is the very problem with the genre.
xilirite: Which game has every single ability have literally thousands of possible options?
Reil: Combat is floaty, environments are static.
xilirite: WITHOUT breaking the game?
Reil: How about Minecraft?
Reil: How about Bulletstorm?
xilirite: Minecraft is not ability based
xilirite: Bulletstorm is not PvP based
Reil: Exactly.
xilirite: Name a game based around PvP that allows you to use every ability in an infinite amount of ways
Reil: (Though, arguably, Bulletstorm’s mechanics in PvP would work brilliantly.)
Reil: I can’t, because none do.
xilirite: Exactly
Reil: Tribes: Ascend gets pretty close, though.
xilirite: You are saying that the thing that makes LoL bad is that it doesn’t do a thing that no game has ever done ever
Reil: No, I am saying it has floaty combat and a bad Depth/Complexity ratio.
xilirite: Floaty combat?
Reil: It feels as if you are floating.
Reil: There is no sense of weight.
xilirite: Skyrim has floaty combat
Reil: Skyrim has characters recoiling from hits.
Reil: It is less floaty than LoL.
xilirite: LoL is a strategy game
Reil: And?
Reil: That excuses that?
xilirite: If every attack staggered the opponent, the balance of the PvP would break
Reil: No,
Reil: It would change the balance.
Reil: And the game would be designed accordingly.
xilirite: The combat is supposed to be fast
xilirite: Skyrim has slower combat
Reil: Tribes: Ascend is fast.
Reil: You still get staggered.
xilirite: And the enemies recoil from hits, and you recoil from misses
xilirite: Tribes: Ascend is a completely different game than LoL
Reil: And?
xilirite: It’s built around the fact that hitting an enemy is hard
xilirite: Really, really hard
xilirite: So if you do it, it matters
Reil: And so a hypothetical MOBA couldn’t be similar?
xilirite: Due to the fact that everyone is sliding around like the ground is coated in oil and like there isn’t any gravity
xilirite: If a MOBA did that, it would be a different game
Reil: MOBA does not mean one game.
xilirite: You are comparing LoL to other games from other genres as opposed to games from it’s own genre
xilirite: i.e., strategy
Reil: So, because a game has a problem in some area, it is excused because it is not from that genre?
xilirite: It is a strategy game where the ‘staggers’ come from being stunned or slowed by attacks
Reil: That is the problem you have with Vyrivend. You are content to keep it like others of its type, as opposed to innovate.
xilirite: No, but if you compare Skyrim to Counter Strike in terms of it’s combat, than I’m gonna have some questions
Reil: Both have a high Depth:Complexity ratio.
xilirite: League of Legends takes it’s depth from a different kind of gameplay than Tribes
Reil: The way it is achieved is different.
xilirite: Tribes is about extremely fast paced on the spot thinking and quick reflexes
Reil: But that depth isn’t there.
Reil: The abilities would add more depth if the environment was dynamic.
Reil: But it isn’t.
xilirite: League of Legends is a slower game, where you need to prioritize your targets and use your abilities in a way that benefits the team the most, and where all of these things need to be thought of at once, and leading up to this, you need to build your character (through rune pages and masteries out of game and items bought with gold in game) to fit the role you’ve been set to fill
xilirite: Tribes is an Arcade Shooter
xilirite: League of Legends is a MOBA
Reil: I stopped talking about Tribes.
xilirite: You’re saying LoL is a bad MOBA because it’s a MOBA
Reil: Why are you still going on?
xilirite: Because it’s the last game you used as an example.
Reil: No, I am saying MOBAs as a genre need improvement.
xilirite: And that’s what Smite tried to do
xilirite: And that game was kind of shit
Reil: Citing where other games have triumphed in the ‘fun’ factor.
xilirite: It did some interesting things
Reil: So, because one failed, innovation should be looked down upon?
xilirite: But the god’s were too imbalanced
xilirite: No
xilirite: But I’m saying you’re looking for faster combat in LoL when such a thing was tried, and it failed. It’s not that innovation in general failed — it’s that innovation in that field failed
Reil: No.
xilirite: MOBAs are a stagnated genre
Reil: There is much more that could have been done.
xilirite: I’m not arguing against that
Reil: The field could be less linear,
Reil: Allowing for a stealth aspect.
xilirite: Every MOBA out there is currently the exact same to the exact same thing
Reil: The field could be dynamic.
Reil: Etc.
Reil: Does that make it right?
xilirite: (And also, the jungles and the bushes make up the stealth)
Reil: That is chance-based stealth.
xilirite: SMITE did stealth in a different way by removing the ability to look behind you
Reil: The enemy still follows a path to your base.
xilirite: How is it chanced based?
xilirite: Yeah, because there are 3 entrances. The majority of the game takes place in the lanes, and the stealth comes from waiting in the bushes and ambushing them, or setting up traps in the jungle.
xilirite: That’s not chance
Reil: Which makes it right how?
Reil: There should be no lanes.
xilirite: There’s no 20% chance of them seeing you
Reil: The thing is, MOBAs shouldn’t be stagnant.
Reil: The only reason they are is due to DotA.
xilirite: But then the core thing that makes MOBAs MOBAs would disappear, and it would stop being a MOBA and become a top down action game
Reil: Which everyone is copying.
Reil: No, MOBAs are only RTS’ with one hero and PvP.
Reil: There is no requirement for lanes.
Reil: You are talking about DotA-types.
xilirite: None of this makes LoL a bad game, but rather not the game you want
xilirite: By this logic, Skyrim sucks because I wanted to explore all of Morrowind in it too
Reil: My depth/complexity analysis is what makes it a poorer game than it could be.
xilirite: LoL is a good game, and the game you propose would be a good game
xilirite: You may not like LoL, but this does not make it a bad game
xilirite: This makes it a game you don’t like
Reil: No, what I am saying is that it isn’t revolutionary.
Reil: I enjoyed it for a while.
xilirite: Not every game needs to be the next big thing in gaming, though
xilirite: If a game refines on existing concepts, does this make it bad?
Reil: There is no refinement, though.
Reil: No new concepts.
Reil: Just the same-old, same-old.
xilirite: It is, at the end of the day, a refined DotA
xilirite: AT the time, it was the only other game in the genre
Reil: DotA 2 serves the purpose better.
xilirite: Yes, but DotA 2 is also the fourth of five MOBAs
Reil: (Not saying I particularly enjoy DotA 2. I don’t.)
xilirite: The second being LoL
xilirite: I don’t like DotA
Reil: LoL IS DotA.
xilirite: This is because it is just the original game with a new coat of paint
Reil: With a new skin.
xilirite: LoL is simplified — it removes some layers of strategy, which can be considered bad, while still remaining fun and adding new concepts to the series, such as different maps and game modes
xilirite: SMITE did this too
xilirite: With the arena battles
xilirite: And LoL with Dominion, Twisted Treeline and Proving Grounds
Reil: But it undermines what makes the MOBA unique.
xilirite: It’s still the same core process for Treeline and Proving Grounds
Reil: Might as well be playing Diablo with a wall of enemies.
xilirite: Advance down the land, destroy enemy towers, reach enemy base, destroy it, kill champions along the way
Reil: The difference being it is harder to control your character.
xilirite: It’s just smaller maps with extra things added in — the altars in Twisted Treeline and the health regeneration runes in Proving Grounds, as well as the limited lanes
xilirite: Is it a huge difference?
xilirite: No, but a noticable one
xilirite: DotA 2 has one map
xilirite: And the same roster of heroes as the first game
Reil: I stated I don’t like DotA 2.
xilirite: The difference being it looks better
Reil: But its gameplay is far superior.
xilirite: LoL does exactly what you’re saying it didn’t do — it added something to the genre. It might’ve been small in comparison to other genres, but this is a genre with a total of 5 games in it
Reil: You focus too much on additional content, not enough on core gameplay.
Reil: The gameplay itself is nothing new.
xilirite: The First Person Shooter has evolved a lot since it first started, and has had 100s of interpretations
Reil: Having more of the same does not make somethign have more depth.
xilirite: Some less inovative than others
Reil: something*
xilirite: MOBAs are new
xilirite: MOBAs will evolve
Reil: And?
Reil: LoL hasn’t.
Reil: That is the point.
xilirite: Yes, but it’s the second game in the genre ever
Reil: Which makes it no better.
xilirite: And the first one that was not a modification to an existing game
xilirite: SMITE was the first small step
xilirite: A MOBA that tried to be different
Reil: You are missing my point.
Reil: You are settling on something that could be better with a few small changes.
xilirite: More will come, and within the next few years, the genre will evolve — LoL will do the same, while keeping the original Summoner’s Rift
xilirite: I’m basically saying this:
xilirite: LoL could be something more, yes, but you are accusing it of not innovating upon the formula that it popularized. Nobody gets mad at Doom for not letting you aim up or down, becase that was an innovation that came later, and one that the game designers didn’t have a need to do immediately, due to the genre still being untreaded ground. LoL is the same thing — it is what popularized the MOBA genre, and it did so by copying a little player made Warcraft mod, which itself was a copy of a Starcraft mod. Everything ELSE copied LoL, and then DotA 2 copied the original DotA. SMITE came along and tried to innovate, just as Bungie’s first entry into the FPS genre was the first one to add up and down to the mix, long before they even started making Myth. I have a feeling that MOBAs will improve, a lot, and will start to cover broader territory. But, as it stands, you’re saying that the game that was essentially the first of it’s kind was not innovative enough, instead of saying that the other games that came later should’ve innovated instead.
Reil: I am saying there are more productive uses of your time.
Reil: Like…
Reil: ROLEPLAYING!
Reil: 😛
Reil: (I kid.)
xilirite: I find LoL fun — you don’t
xilirite: My friend finds LoL fun too
Reil: Oh jeez, you are so serious.
xilirite: It’s one of two games that we both own, the other being Borderlands
xilirite: The biggest reason I play LoL is that he plays it and it’s fun to play with friends
xilirite: Yes, I will RP
xilirite: I’m not saying LoL is the greatest game ever made
Reil: I was kidding.
xilirite: I know
Reil: Hello?
xilirite: I’m not that dense 😛
xilirite: I’m saying that LoL is just a game, and I’m allowed to try to do my best in a competitive PvP game, because of it’s nature. One day, a MOBA will actually truly mix things up, and I’ll probably play that too, but so far, it hasn’t come, and of the 3 biggest MOBAs on the market right now, I personally find LoL to be the most enjoyable — with DotA 2 being too hard to get into with too many elitist pricks ruining the game for everyone
xilirite: I’ll do Vyrivend tommorow
xilirite: But when I’m not doing Vyrivend, I play video games, and LoL is one of them.
reviewlution 